Daaesh gets talked over by Serious Men with Beards and Voila! Ladies with Make-up

Lively discussion on the BBC Arabic ...

They were talking about why young Muslims in the west go join Daa-esh (ISIS).

First, this guy gave his opinion:

He said: there's so much Islamaphobia, so much racism, kids grow up in this environment and of course they end up feeling: this western society is not for me.

Said the BBC Arabic moderator: Okay, there's Muslims in Europe who are now government ministers, are you saying they all need to become Daaesh's suicide bombers tomorrow?

Serious Man with the Beard: No, of course not, you know, and it's important to say that most Muslim youth in Europe are just fine, they are not radicalized, they are living okay, these extremists are a very very small part.

Then the Serious Man with the Beard started going down a different tack:

The reason Muslim youth join Daaesh is because all the moderate Muslim groups have been repressed. So they don't have a venue to express themselves and you end up with people who take to extremism to get their points across. You know, there's been a lot of moderate Muslim organizations that have been put down.

The BBC Arabic moderator: Wait, who exactly are you talking about?

Serious man with the beard: Well, you know, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt for one. They were moderate. Can you say that they were like Daaesh?

BBC Arabic moderator: No, we can't say that.

Serious man with the beard: Well, so when the Muslim Brotherhood was legal in Egypt, things were fine. Now that they have been outlawed, it's now that we see the new and dangerous actors come out, the ones who are blowing things up every few days.

There was a lady who was also part of the conversation. I didn't get a chance to take a screenshot of her, which was too bad. She was speaking from Lebanon, and she kept interspersing her Arabic with random French words, like 'voila!' and 'justeeees', and probably making all the Arab grandmothers watching at home get really indignant.

Said the Voila! Lady: You know, kids wouldn't get drawn towards Daaesh if that fertile ground wasn't already there, and honestly, it was the political Islam groups just like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt that planted that ground, they are the ones who led to those ideas, where you first have extremist thoughts, and then you move to extremist actions. They make it possible.

The Serious Man with the Beard was not happy about this, but unfortunately, there was a white-haired man sitting right next to him in the studio, and he piled right on:

Said the White-haired Man: You know, the Muslim Brotherhood have it right in their motto. Their motto says: "Jihad is our way, Death for the sake of God is our wish."

BBC Arabic Moderator: Okay, but you know, they carried that motto out in a different way than Daaesh does.

White-haired Man: Nope, the thoughts are exactly the same.

The Serious Man with the Beard: Nope, not the same at all, And you know what, 'Jihad' can mean many many things. It can mean jihad in a personal sense, that you're trying to make yourself a better person. It doesn't mean you have to do anything violent.

Then the Voila! Lady got in on it again:

You know, it's always the case with men like your guest here representing the Muslim Brotherhood, that as soon as we start talking about identity, he has to take it straight to, oh, Muslims in the west have no rights, and so on. Actually, Europe has given us tons of rights.

The Voila! Lady left, and the White-haired Man left, and this lady with a lot of make-up replaced them:

She said: You know, it's the fault of all the sheikh's at the mosques, they sit and stir up all the youth, and you know, they are supposed to be talking about things like love and peace.

BBC Arabic Moderator: Don't they do that?

Make-up Lady: Well, I'm not saying that they don't, but all of them need to do it. I don't want to generalize. But the sheikhs in the mosques need to take up the responsibility of distinguishing true Islam and pointing out the wrong things that Daaesh says.

BBC Arabic: Well, what about the Internet? It might not be the sheikhs in the mosques at all, it could just be that youths read extremist things on-line.

Make-up Lady: Right. There's actually an initiative that was started in London about this. Two youths try to chat with kids online and get them to see the error of Daaesh's ways. They are actually using Daaesh's ammunition - trolling around the internet - to get back at Daaesh.

BBC Arabic Moderator: It sounds great, but what can two kids do?

Make-up Lady: Exactly, and this is why the British government needs to help and support these kids. They need to put forth resources so that they can develop these initiatives and make them stronger.

Attack on French Newspaper: Have Your Say on the BBC Arabic

The BBC Arabic did a call-in show this week about the attack on the French newspaper Charlie Hebdo. It was not a debate on whether or not the attack was justified, because I don't think the BBC Arabic wanted to go down that path. That would have turned ugly. As the moderator said when he opened the show: We all condemn this attack. We don't want to debate that. We want to have a conversation on what the fall-out and consequences from the attack will be for Muslim communities living in France.

BBC Arabic moderator. His name is Mohamed Saif al Nasser. That means Mohamed Sword the Victorious

And then the moderator said: to re-cap, twelve people were killed in the offices of the newspaper, amongst them two police officers, and by the way, one of them was Muslim. 

The first caller was a Muslim lady living in France called Ibtisaam Azauia. Her first name means 'Smile'.

Ibtisaam: What has happened is so sad, and unfortunately, the people who committed this terrorist act are giving everyone in the world a bad picture of Islam. Today, I ask that there not be a mixing of this terrorist act and the Muslim and Arab population in France and in Europe in general. And I am afraid that this will end up giving more fuel for extremist political parties. 

BBC Arabic Moderator: Some people think that the image of Muslims in the West is already really bad. 

Ibtisaam: Well, let's not generalize. Actually, it's not all French people who think all Muslims are terrorists, but there is a negative impression. So I ask for all the leaders not to allow anyone to take advantage of this attack. In France, there is an extreme far-right party. And we don't want them taking advantage of this crime to become even more extremist.

While Ibtisaam was talking via her phone from France, the BBC Arabic showed us all these images of vigils in France:

Then the BBC Arabic moderator started talking to a mayor of a town in France. The mayor's name is Mr. Omar, and he is originally Arab. The name of the town sounded like "A Teas-Spoons"

Mr. Omar: I am totally in agreement with your caller Ibtisaam, except I think that things are worse than how she put it. The image of Islam is really bad in the west and this is only going to make things worse. We Muslims in France see that these acts end up justifying racism and enabling extremists from the other side who don't want Muslims and Arabs in France. I don't mean to say that French people are racist, but let's remember that in the last elections the far-right party got 20% of the vote. That means a fifth of the population feels this way. So I don't say everyone, I would just say that 20% of the population is voting for far-right people. This plays a role in increasing hatred. 

BBC Arabic moderator: Well, the French Prime Minister Hollande said that France has to stay united. Is he saying something, pushing for something, that doesn't actually exist on the ground in France?

Mr. Omar: We Muslims think that we are part of French society. If we thought of ourselves as outside the society, that's what the extremists want. So we work with others as fellow French citizens, we deal with people as though we are French, not as though we are outsiders or foreigners. That is the problem, there's lots of people who just keep thinking of themselves as outsiders. 

Then Enes, also a Muslim in France, called to say: Yes, the far-right people are going to use this attack to justify more division within our society. This is very frightening. Today we saw a mosque attacked, and a Muslim family in a car was attacked. Who knows what is going to happen next?

Moderator: Alright, but tell me about Arabs in France. Do they actually see themselves part of France? The people who carried out the attack are French, so what is going on?

Enes: These ideas of killing people randomly do not exist within our mosques. These extremist violent ideas are just amongst people in their homes. They become extremist maybe by looking online. But this is not the general idea amongst Muslims in France. 

Then the moderator went back to talking to the Mayor from A Teas-Spoons.

Moderator: Does French society play a role in pushing youth into these violent ideas? Can French society and institutions stop these kids from going that route?

Mr. Omar: Amongst institutions, there is no racism. In fact, quite the opposite. French institutions fight against racism and give everyone their rights. That is what is said, but on the ground, it's a different story. People are not always so committed and it's not all positive. For example, company bosses are not required to hire kids of Arab or Muslim backgrounds as much as they hire everyone else, so these kids cannot find jobs. And actually, there is a failure in their upbringing, in their education. So can we say that France has succeeded in bringing these kids out of their problems? No, of course not, because if they had succeeded we wouldn't see these types of terrorist attacks. Because extremism comes from poverty, it comes from ...

Moderator: So do you think this attack will push France towards rethinking some of its policies, or will it lead to people entrenching themselves in their current positions?

Mr. Omar: I really would hope it will be the former! There's the far-right party that thinks security is the most important thing, but it cannot just be a political approach, it has to be ... and what is happening is that French people of French descent are now scared when they see a Muslim person and they think right away that this is a terrorist, and this attack will just make these feelings even more common. 

[I can agree with that! A lot of people tell me that I am very innocent-looking, but I can sense that there's people who are scared of me, too. And they very often are red-haired, which makes me sad, because Anne of Green Gables and Pippi Longstocking are my friends from childhood.]

Then a man called Jihad from France called in. Jihad is a man who is originally from Lebanon. 

Jihad: This attack will not change the fundamentals of French society. Of course, there will be an impact, but France is led by human rights, by respect for freedom, and gives these freedoms to everyone. 

Unfortunately, Jihad's phone line was kind of bad, so I could not exactly figure out what he was saying. I only only heard bits and pieces - I think he said the news media in France can be extremist; and he said that the basis for all this is ignorance. For example, people think all Arabs are Muslim, or all Muslims are Arab, when in actuality many Arabs are Christians. 

Then Jihad said something about how when you walk in somewhere, people greet you with friendliness. And he added: my name is Jihad, and when people hear that ... I think he was saying that even though Jihad's name is Jihad and this has a bad context in the west, people still treat him as a normal person. At least, that's what I think he said. 

Then Shayma' called in. Even she had had problems understanding Jihad, so it wasn't just me!

Shayma': I couldn't hear everything that Jihad said, but yes, people are very scared of Islam in France. Maybe there are exceptions, but most Muslims in France feel this, this pervasive feeling that people are scared of us. Right now, we feel as though we are under danger. Right now, a Muslim girl wearing a hijab might be afraid to go out on the street alone because someone might want to take revenge on her for the attack. 

Moderator: Let's talk about that. In Australia there was also a terrorist attack recently, but the response in the form of internet campaigns was supportive of Muslim Australians, and we all remember the hashtag iwillridewithyou. Is French society capable of that, or is French society just different?

Mr. Omar the mayor of A Teas-Spoons answered this: Well, I'm not so sure. I was voted into office by French society. There are responsibilities on both sides. First, for Muslims, we have to make our situation better, make our behavior and manners better, because in the end, people don't know if you pray, fast, or give charity; they just see how you treat other people. And there is a problem here. For example, there's people that right after finishing their prayers you see them go out and vandalize people's cars. So Muslims have to work on this. But there's also a responsibility on the French side. There is racism for example against giving jobs to poor people. Also, we know that Muslims and Arabs may get lots of benefits from civilized western democracy, and they might exaggerate in the benefits they get from others and that others get from them [really not sure what that last line meant.]

Moderator: Alright, let's talk about the future. People are saying that security at the newspaper was lax, and I'm not saying that to take away blame from the people who actually carried out the attack. But this is a newspaper that has been attacked before; it was known to be a vulnerable site, and yet this attack happened which extremist political parties are now taken advantage of. So what do you think?

Mr. Omar: Of course the far right parties will benefit from the attack, and all other parties who want to decrease trust amongst French society. But as for Muslims, it's going to make us have to put forth greater efforts to change the picture, to improve our image. And one of the big problems is that French media is kind of against Muslims. We do not at all say this to justify the attack, but we do remember that the newspaper Charlie Hebdo insulted Islam and Muslims a lot ...

Moderator: Yes, but it also insulted all other religions all the time.

Mr. Omar: Yes, yes, yes!

And that was the end of Mayor Omar of A Teas-Spoons. He signed off the air at that point.

So the BBC Arabic moderator turned back to Jihad who was still waiting patiently with his fuzzy phone line.

Jihad: I just wanted to add one thing, and that is to say that one of the people who died in such cold blood was a French Muslim named Ahmed. I would like to ask everyone listening to ... something something about far-right political parties and asking your parents what their opinions are. Then Jihad continued: We are against any act against Muslims, Arabs, Christians, any extremist act. Criminals do not pay attention to who is around them. That's why we have to speak out against all of them.

Moderator: You're right, as we saw, the Muslim police officer was killed by this attack, and the image of Islam has been killed right along with it.

Jihad signed off, and then the moderator went over to his BBC Arabic colleague monitoring the on-line comments.

Some of the comments said: The attack is normal because of the insulting pictures the newspaper had printed.

Other comments said: The newspaper was wrong in printing those pictures, but this attack is completely wrong and killing people is something completely wrong and goes against the teachings of Islam, because the Prophet Mohamed never insulted anyone, including those who insulted him.

A man named Attiya had written: The newspaper insulted Muslims, and this is the gentlest revenge the cartoonists could have received.

Another person wrote: I don't agree with murder, but I'm not sad about what happened, because these people insulted the Prophet and millions of Muslims.

Abdul Kareem wrote: Under the headline of free speech people say a lot of things, but your rights end where another person's rights begin.

The BBC Arabic moderator cut in to say: These comments seem to justify the attack, but our real topic today is what the future impact will be.

So the colleague looking at online comments said: Yes, most of the comments says the impact will be huge and negative. They compare it to what happened following the 2001 attacks in the US, which were followed by attacks on Muslims.

One person wrote: there will be more hate towards Muslims and more power to the far right.

An optimistic person wrote: This won't have any impact. French people are very moderate and they have the biggest Muslim population in all of Europe and we can move beyond this crime.

Some one called ZuZu had written: the key to stopping this is dialogue between the West and Muslims.

Another wrote: We need more laws against people who insult religions. Why do they allow insults towards holy things but they don't allow anything to be said against the Holocaust?

Another comment: It is obvious who is behind the attack, it was obviously the French police and the French far-right parties because they managed to do this in the middle of the day in the heart of Paris, it's obvious who masterminded this.

Another comment: It was actually Israel who carried out the attack. They are punishing France for its votes in support of Palestinian statehood.

Another: There are extremist Christians and Jews in Paris who make things worse for Muslims.

Whew. Enough with online comments. Now it's back to the phones. Hamza from France is on the line.

BBC Arabic Moderator: Hamza, doesn't the Muslim community hold some of the blame for not doing enough to teach Islam in a good way, to promote the correct principles?

Hamza from France: Well, there's lots of Islamic countries that teach that everyone but us Muslims are going to hell, we need to recognize that this kind of thinking exists. But there's also Muslims that teach tolerance and acceptance. We cannot go one way and block everyone else out. Now so many journalists have died, and police officers. We cannot allow these kinds of people to represent Islam ...

Then Salah called in.

Salah: Yes, we cannot deny that Muslims in France are scared right now, but I think what happened was a conspiracy. Listen to me, it was all Israel's fault.

Moderator: Mmm. Mmmmm.

He did not look amused:

Salah continued: Because Islam is very far away from committing such acts!

Moderator: What you say is actually not surprising because we just saw in the comments people saying the same thing. However, you say there is fear amongst Muslims. What exactly?

Salah: I think that is a Muslim person went out alone, and ran into the hands of six or seven racists, of the French people, then yes, things could go wrong.

Moderator: Do Muslims hold any blame at all? Lots of guests are saying that Muslims are not giving a good picture of Islam to the west and so it is only natural that French people view them as something to be scared of. And they vote for the far-right parties because they are scared.

Salah: Let me tell you, my dear man. I am married to a French lady who became Muslim. If there was not a good image of Islam, would she have become Muslim? And it's not just Muslims in France, it's Muslims in the Arab countries. Those countries play a part in messing up the image of Islam. The other day I saw a beautiful film about the Prophet, may peace be upon him. And in Tunisia the other day a bunch of people gathered around the French embassy holding signs saying We Are Charlie. So why should people think that we are so bad?

Moderator: Because, quite simply, if there's a cartoon we are offended by, then we should make a better cartoon. If it's an offensive film, we should make a better film. And the response towards a cartoon should not be through guns, because this just makes the religion look worse.

Then, the show brought on via camera a man who was sitting in front of the Eiffel Tower. I think this man is connected to one of the major mosques in Paris.

Moderator: Is there still time for us to improve the image of Islam in the west, or is it too late?

Man by the Eiffel Tower: First, I would like to say that I am very sad. The attack has been a big shock. However, there's still a big hope because these kinds of acts take away the obstacles towards integration in France (?). These acts are not about religions, they are crimes point blank and they threaten security here, but not anything else (I think he meant the attack would not threaten French unity between people of all backgrounds.)

Moderator: But a lot of French people don't think that this is just a crime. They think it is a crime, yes, but a crime based on Islamic principles, and it is leading to a lot of criticism of Islam and is helping out extreme political parties.

Man by the Eiffel Tower: We've been working for years to open up a dialogue with French society. There's a difference between the French street and French politics. We cannot give it up to people who want more disunity. French people are very aware. There are those that want to insult Islam and they will take advantage of this attack to press their opinions even further [I really don't know what his main point was.]

Moderator: Well, it's very logical for those people to take advantage of this attack, it plays right into their hands. So what about the opposite end. What is the role of the mosques, of the Muslim leaders, of the biggest mosque in Paris, for example?

Man by the Eiffel Tower: Well, the mosques in Paris have to be aware of how kids are being brought up and ensure that the right message of Islam is being spread. But the Islamic institutions are not responsible further than that! The first responsibility lies with the French government!

Moderator: How is that? If like you say there is a bad image of Islam in France, and the government cannot do anything about it, how is it that you have no responsbility?

Man by the Eiffel Tower: Well, religious institutions do not work alone. There are media outlets that give the prime voice to the extremist Muslims and make it seems as though all Muslims are like that. I think they need to do a better job of showing everyone's opinions. Because most Muslims do not have such extremist opinions.

It was almost the end of the program by now. The moderator took another phone call from a man called Mohsen, and he said:

Mohsen: Muslim leaders are lacking, the people funding us are lacking, and the TV channels are lacking, and people are talking in too many languages and ...

And the last comment went back to the Man by the Eiffel Tower. He closed by saying:

It's going to be okay because Muslims contribute to French society, we vote, we have economic power, and if we're unhappy with something we can take it to the polls.

To watch the full show click here to go to the video on the BBC Arabic's YouTube site.

The Mosque in Washington DC

On my way to the Swedish Embassy, we happened to pass the mosque in DC! So in we went. 

 First glimpse of the minaret as you walk along the fancy street in DC towards the mosque

The mosque has a large courtyard out front, and what feels like several lodges spread out to greet you first. It's like those old manors from the English aristocracy, where you first pass the porter's lodge, and the gatekeepers, and the barns and what not, but now I'm getting a bit too fanciful! There's not big lawns and winding paths, but just office space and a bookstore. You walk into the courtyard enclosed within them and that is where you get to the entrance of the mosque. 

When we got there, a bunch of little kids were sitting on the floor. The buses outside said St. Stephen's and St. Agnes' School. Some of the kids looked serious, others looked impish. They were all clustered around the mosque representative who was talking to them about Islam.

Then, while the little kids were still seated, a group of high schoolers walked in, also clearly on a field-trip. All the girls were wearing scarves on their hair, though most managed to have the tips of their hair pouring fashionably out out the back. The little kids left to get back on their buses, and I remembered how Claudia and Jamie from "The mixed-up files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler" had joined school tours in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, just by pretending that they belonged. I decided to do the same here. I caught the whole interaction between the mosque imam and the high school kids. 

The mosque representative, who I think turned out to be the Imam himself, was a very kind-looking old man. He has an accent and when he talks he kind of drones on and on. 

First thing, he told the high-schoolers that Islam means submission to God, and that we believe in all the Prophets starting with Abraham. 

Then he said that every year for one month, we fast from "food, drink and bad things", and that this is supposed to remind us of people who have nothing to eat and drink. 

Then he said Islam teaches that we all have pre-planned lives. "Every Muslim in the world believes this," said the Imam. I personally hate it when a Muslim says, "every Muslim thinks this" or "every Muslim thinks that." No, actually, we probably don't. 

Then the Imam said that it's mandatory to give money to "eliminate or reduce poverty," and that this brings intimacy between people, and that money should be donated discreetly. 

FInally, the Imam rounded things off, Muslims go to Mecca. Why? Because Islam is an old religion and Mecca was built by Abraham. 

Then it was the question-and-answer time. And since I actually am Muslim, I of course had many of them. 

I asked: how can we have a pre-planned life, and still have the free will to choose between doing good and evil? 

The Imam said, oh, that's a beautiful question, thank you for that beautiful question. But then he just kind of preached aimlessly about something, I got lost, and I don't think he answered. 

A high school boy asked: why can't you depict Mohamed?

Imam: What?

High school boy: why can't you depict Mohamed?

Imam: What?

So the boy repeated himself yet again, and I think on the third try the Imam finally understood. The Imam said:

Oh, God bless you, that is a beautiful question!

And so it went on. I didn't write down all the answers and questions, so let me describe what the mosque looks like from the inside. 

It's small. It's a rectangular room, but you can't see all of it all at once because columns and pillars rise like a forest. When I say small, I still mean that it held about 100 students tucked onto the floor all at the same time, and could have held many more. But still, it's kind of small. 

The floor is spread with many, many Persian rugs. 

The pillars: I think there were 16 pillars spaced out evenly. Some were pale green marble with a lantern-like lamp posted onto them. Others had garish tiles plastered on them. 

The walls of the mosque were constructed of the same garish tiles. These can be describe as displaying flowery, scrolling designs: dark blue, light blue, green, orange-brown scrolls and blooms on a white background. Each tile has only a small part of the entire design, so you have to see a whole wall of tiles. But really, there's not a bigger image to see. It's just variation after variation of flowery scrolls. 

One of the high schoolers asked: why don't you believe that Jesus was the son of Mary?

The Imam said: we believe that Jesus was a spirit that God conceived in Mary, but not his son. 

While all this was happening, four too-cool-for-this boys sitting in the back were on their cell phones. One boy's boxer shorts were poking out. This particular boy kept lying down, and the girl in front of him kept slapping his knee when he did so. 

Someone asked: how does Islam view other religions?

Imam: we consider Christians and Jews to be 'People of the Book'. 

The pillars rise up, and near the ceiling they all get connected with archways - arches that are very reminiscent of Islamic architecture. They look like this:

Finally, these archways rise higher and become the ceiling. There are insets up there with Arabic words. First, there's a green inset border, then a yellow one, then dark red, and finally white; and a blue background behind everything. The Arabic words are written in white with a red outline, and the same words are written again, just behind the white, but in light green this time. 

The arches and the ceiling are all connected with triangles coming together, and finally, way way up, there's small church-like windows of stained glass - this is the part where the dome is. 

Then, we got to the questions about women. 

High-school kid: Why do men and women separate when praying?
Imam: Because of how we kneel down. We have to only be thinking about God. 

High-school student: Why do women cover their hair?
Imam: Women spend hundreds of dollars on their hair! Why? We need to limit attraction so that no one becomes interested in you. Besides that, after a women gets married, she has to focus on her family. (as an afterthought, the Imam remembered to say: and so does the husband.)

And then someone asked: what is up between Sunnis and Shias?
And this is where it became very apparent just how sunny, united, and brotherly this Imam really is!
The Imam said: Sunni means that we follow the teachings of Mohamed. The Shia is a sect that grew out after 30 years. They believed that Mohamed's son-in-law should take power. They became a political sect. So to summarize, the Sunni follow the law of Mohamed, and the other one came up with a political system. 

I told someone about how the Imam answered that question, and we both agreed, wouldn't it have been better for him to say: you know what, we're all Muslim, we all believe in the same basic things, and this Sunni-Shia fighting happening today is really stupid and juvenile. But clearly, that's not happening. 

Finally, a girl asked about Arabic and how it is spoken. 
The Imam obliged and asked her, "keef al haal", or كيف الحال, or how are you doing? Really, the girl's whole reason for asking the question was so that she could say: I know how to say Asalam Alaykum! So she did that and the Imam gave her a pleased smile, and that was the end. 

The Imam said: it was a great pleasure to have you all here today, with which the student responded by clapping strongly. 

It was time to leave. The assistant Imam walked up and gave instructions. He asked the young ladies to leave and get their shoes first (everyone leaves their shoes by the doorway before entering the mosque.) The Imam said: oh-ho!

So the girls piled out into the courtyard first, and the boys followed. Groups of friends took pictures together, and then everyone took a big class picture. One or two girls unveiled their hair immediately, but most were still wearing their scarves during the picture-taking and everyone seeming very pleased, and I thought they all looked good. 

 It appears the mosque is across from the Spanish embassy!

And finally, they went back to their buses, and one blonde teacher kept her scarf on the whole time. 

Now I just need to finish describing what the walls look like. I said that they have the same garish tiles plastered on, but that's just the lower part of the wall. Above the garish tiles it's just bare white. Above the white, there are the same sort of Islamic-looking arches, except they are laid right into the walls. The insides of the arches are brownish-looking cement, but stars and clouds have been cut into the brown, with yellow panes of glass inserted, and the sunrays come through that. The clouds all have seven lobes, the stars all have eight points. 

Big chandeliers are hanging from the ceiling.